Oh, what an introduction.
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Oct. 4th, 2004 | 08:20 pm
mood: 
pedantic
music: Tori Amos - Agent Orange
posted by: 
drworm in 
death_note
This is an elaboration on the topic covered in this post by v_voltaire ... whom I applaud for making the connection. Though I expected it to be made a lot sooner, to be honest.
L and Autism: Pointing Out Things No One Else Cares About
A slight disclaimer: no, I do not think L is intended as an autistic character, and I don't expect you to either. This is not a 'diagnosis;' I'm no medical professional, despite the user name, and anyway you can't diagnose a fictional character. You can, however, choose to interpret such a character under the figurative umbrella that such a categorization offers. It is, one might say, simply food for thought.
And I still find it amusing to see how well-liked L is by fans.
v_voltaire ... whom I applaud for making the connection. Though I expected it to be made a lot sooner, to be honest.L and Autism: Pointing Out Things No One Else Cares About
A slight disclaimer: no, I do not think L is intended as an autistic character, and I don't expect you to either. This is not a 'diagnosis;' I'm no medical professional, despite the user name, and anyway you can't diagnose a fictional character. You can, however, choose to interpret such a character under the figurative umbrella that such a categorization offers. It is, one might say, simply food for thought.
And I still find it amusing to see how well-liked L is by fans.
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from:
tatooine
date: Oct. 4th, 2004 05:49 pm (UTC)
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from:
miiol
date: Oct. 4th, 2004 05:50 pm (UTC)
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Um, one point that might be of interest is the thing about how L holds a pen. Er, I'm not sure if it's 'traditional Greek' or something, but I was taught to hold a pencil/pen like that to write when I was living in Greece. L mentions living in England for 5 years, so maybe~ it's something to do with his education if he lived in Europe for a while or something? XD
Ah, sorry about rambling! ^^;;;
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from:
drworm
date: Oct. 4th, 2004 06:09 pm (UTC)
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Happily for me, I love writing essays; the time, it just flies.
Er, I'm not sure if it's 'traditional Greek' or something, but I was taught to hold a pencil/pen like that to write when I was living in Greece.
Wow, really? Heh... that makes more sense, at least to me; my experience with holding writing utensils involves gripping them too tightly or awkwardly, something that L's method doesn't lend itself to. Still, I thought it was noticeable enough that not bringing it up would leave a gap. Thank you for this information; it's seriously interesting and helpful (um... to me, at least). Maybe I'll try writing like that. :3
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from:
miiol
date: Oct. 5th, 2004 06:44 am (UTC)
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And hee, I had to go try writing like that, and found out I can't anymore. Hopefully your attempt will be better than mine! X3
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from:
evilnekohilda
date: Oct. 4th, 2004 05:54 pm (UTC)
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Thanks for the bit of insight, it's always cool to hear/read intellegent stuff like this <3
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from:
sub_divided
date: Oct. 4th, 2004 06:45 pm (UTC)
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from:
sub_divided
date: Oct. 4th, 2004 07:04 pm (UTC)
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The first people to post on the topic had done research over the internet or known, distantly, someone with AS. Later, when people who were a lot closer to the issue came along, it became impossible to argue. Because obviously they'd know a lot better than the rest of us, see? I know that I, personally, didn't think I had the right to debate it.
Ah, but you're the closest person to the issue of all, so of course it is alright to agree with you XD.
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from:
drworm
date: Oct. 4th, 2004 07:54 pm (UTC)
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Well... yes, broadly. I do like people agreeing with me, but I don't object to disagreements (that are based on, well, arguments that don't suck and aren't based on misunderstanding; and there are plenty that I think could be made), and I don't think I should be... um... an "authority" exactly. People with AS have a wide variety of experiences and opinions, and I would really hate for anyone to think I'm trying to present what I know as the beginning and end of AS; I'm just relating what I know because it interests me, particularly in this context. Yes. Or maybe I'm just trying to avoid taking responsibility for what I wrote. One of those.
But, ah... no, I'm glad you liked the essay. *still have to check that other comment out*
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from:
aerie
date: Oct. 5th, 2004 01:54 am (UTC)
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1) We are not trained professionals in the field.
2) Even if we are, it is impossible to diagnose a fictional character for the reasons above.
3) The author is most likely not a trained professional either, so it is doubtful she wrote Death Note with the specific intention of accurately examining a clinical case.
That said, I do find it a very useful tool for assisting in character study*, and I'm sure many authors do as well. I see nothing wrong with an author using diagnostic criteria for Aspergers as a foundation for her characterisation of L, or analysing L's motivations with that bias. It's when we get into "my best friend has Aspergers and it's nothing like L!!" that I, um, rant in LJ communities.
* lovely essay <3 particularly organising the manga panels to illustrate your point. I would like to point out, re: supposed aversion to touch, that in recent chapters L has been rather touchy-feely with Raito. I had always considered him to be someone who would avoid touching, myself, but there are points when, for example, he will lean over Raito to examine the computer screen and rest a hand on Raito's shoulder for no apparent reason. Of course, this may be a natural consequence of spending months in forced proximity due to the handcuffs, but I still found it pretty interesting.
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from:
lacewing
date: Oct. 7th, 2004 07:06 am (UTC)
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from:
drworm
date: Oct. 7th, 2004 12:47 pm (UTC)
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Aha, yes, and it reinforces a misconception of what I would think is the main point of a diagnosis: developing a plan for treating an individual or helping them to better cope with daily life to the best of their abilities. It's not really necessary to have or seek a diagnosis if one is not affected, even if certain symptoms are familiar. Unless these symptoms are impairing functioning in some way, there doesn't seem to be much reason to diagnose. But so many medical and psychological phrases have wormed their way into the vernacular that it can be challenging to separate a need for intervention from a need to categorize. If that makes sense.
in recent chapters L has been rather touchy-feely with Raito
Yes, that's true, and certainly very interesting. Of course, not every person with AS experiences significant sensitivities to touch, but even for those who do it rarely comes down to a ban on all forms of physical contact. Some people are most comfortable making contact when they are in control... I grab your shoulder, I pat your head, I shake your hand, etc. which may be traced to a need for certainty of reaction. For others, it's all about pressure: light touches are an irritation while firm touches are reassuring, or vice versa. Or maybe it's body heat that's the problem, and touching someone with a layer or two of clothing providing separation is not difficult at all. I think reactions can also vary with the degree of sensory stimulation being processed; at a rock concert, for example, the loud music dominates the senses and so the press of other people becomes secondary. In the end, though, I do think it comes down to a sense of predictability in others. If the sense of predictability or sequence feels wrong, for whatever reason, the feeling becomes irritating or painful.
And... yes. Thank you very much for your comment and your rant, which was a very good read. :D
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from:
empress_nothing
date: Oct. 5th, 2004 03:23 am (UTC)
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from:
memlu
date: Oct. 5th, 2004 06:10 pm (UTC)
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As for L's popularity, it might be because the differences about him that, if he should be autistic, could serve to alienate him in real life make him seem fascinating in fiction? (Which, just generally speaking, is sad, considering people in the real world are more important than fictional characters.) Also, toes. :D
(Unrelated: I love your fanfiction. Um. I just thought I should say this, having never really gotten up the courage to randomly pop my head up in your LJ or anywhere. XD And I totally understand if this is random and creepy. Okay, I'll go hide now.)
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from:
lacewing
date: Oct. 7th, 2004 07:01 am (UTC)
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and not all people with AS or Austism are disliked. I had a boyfriend with AS once, he was as adorable to me as L is ^_^ And several other friends and a sister in law who have Austism ot various degrees.
Frankly as with any disorder, even despression, if they got better edgucation out there would help. I remember when I was in school they actually ran a thing where for a WEEK the classes where set up akwardly, or we were stuffed in things like wheel chairs and crutches, or given heavy things to put on, or having to write our papers with a mirror.. (this really should have told me somehting, i acutaly found tha was easier to work with -.- I'm mildly dislexic, but I've learned on my own how to funtion) But I think they should make something like that mandatory, because everytime a student complain they would state "ANd this is what the world is LIKE for someone with a disorder"
The students in our special class got alot more respect I will tell you that. Respect that didn't go away after a bit either.
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from:
drworm
date: Oct. 7th, 2004 12:17 pm (UTC)
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Is it? Ongoing, I mean. This all seems very mild to me.
and not all people with AS or Austism are disliked.
Who said they were? Though everyone is disliked by someone, of course, regardless of whether they have any kind of disease or disorder.
But the actual crux of AS and autism is an inability to correctly and consistently interpret emotional and physical cues that are crucial to reciprocal interaction. Some people are able to compensate for this better than others, but in the end it means that all relationships are going to be affected by some degree in a way not pervasively experienced by neurotypical people. Not that this precipitates active dislike, but it certainly can put a strain on potential and active friendships.
And in my own experience, probably prejudiced, strangers are not likely to be overly thrilled with someone who might speak, move, look, and act completely or mildly contrary to any of the major societal norms.
As for 'educating the masses,' I've never entirely seen that as productive. Particularly when it comes to autism, since I'm having trouble envisioning how one might replicate the sense of lack of empathy or theory of mind. Beyond that, I've come to find those sort of things vaguely embarrassing. I can't quite fathom why people would be interested in how or why we do the things that seem perfectly natural to us (though I could clearly talk about it for hours).
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from:
lacewing
date: Oct. 7th, 2004 08:54 pm (UTC)
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I understand that part, but really the edgucation I'm talking about is not the stuff they do, which hardly edgucates at all. It just says "These poeple are sick." is what it boils down to. ANd sick though can be taken negitively.
You're not sick, just diffent, and everyone's different. Some just have a harder time than others because of what's considered normal.
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from:
fani
date: Aug. 22nd, 2005 03:10 am (UTC)
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One thing that adds to the “autism” debate on L is he is extremely very good at separating his emotion and the fact.
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from:
marjohn666valo
date: Oct. 6th, 2010 05:09 pm (UTC)
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from:
roseblight
date: May. 29th, 2012 12:37 am (UTC)
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